PN (Polyneuropathy), LP (Laryngeal Paralysis), Ataxia spinocerebellar/cerebellar, Quadruplegia, LEM (Leuco-encephalo-myelopathy). These are all genetic neurological disorders that can cause all kind of physical problems like gait problems, paralyses, respiration problems etc.
Сообщение: 2260
Зарегистрирован: 10.09.08
Откуда: Россия, Великий Новгород
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2
Отправлено: 04.06.09 11:11. Заголовок: Вот что нашла по тем..
Вот что нашла по теме Невропатия на просторах интернета ...на сайте AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB в новостях... (перевод напряженный, но понять суть можно)
Учредительство здоровья AKC собачье объявляет финансирование для изучения Polyneuropathy Leonberger [пятница 24-ое январь 2008]
Учредительство здоровья AKC собачье объявляет финансирование Grant 920, «генетическая основа Polyneuropathy в Leonbergers.» Сделано возможным через шедрость учредительства здоровья Leonberger, изучение изыскивает определить гены связанные с этим ослабляющий заболеванием которое главный фокус здоровья для породы.
Polyneuropathy неврологический разлад который происходит когда много периферийных нервов повсеместно в тело работают неправильно одновременно. Он может быть акутов и появляться без предупреждения, или хроническ и превращаться постепенно над более длинним периодом времени. Много polyneuropathies имеют и мотор и сензорная запутанность и некоторые имеют autonomic дисфункцию слабонервной системы. Эти разлады часто симметричны и часто включают дистальные оконечности.
Affected собаки Leonberger показывают дистальный, симметричный polyneuropathy при laryngeal парализованность, обыкновенно называемая Polyneuropathy Leonberger (LPN). Клинические и патологические характеристики этого разлада демонстрируют его для того чтобы быть axonal невропатией с поразительными сходствами к формам людского заболевания зуба Charcot-Мари (CMT). Хотя режим унаследования LPN пока не знан, коэффициент affected мужчин к affected женщинам приблизительно исследователями 2.5 до 1. на университете коллежа Миннесота ветеринарной медицины, включая Др. Джеймс R. Mickelson начните превосходный банк дна образцов от affected и нормальных собак в большой части должной к усилиям клубов породы Leonberger. Исследователя предлагают использовать эти образцы в всем анализе ассоциации генома с отметками SNP для того чтобы составить карту хромосомные положения локусов гена LPN. Этот проект должен произвести Дна-основанное испытание отметки для помощи реактор-размножителов в уменьшении падения LPN. В добавлении, научные работники надеются определить гены выбранного от этих хромосомных локусов для sequencing будущего и идентификации перегласовки.
Отправлено: 04.06.09 11:56. Заголовок: V Anglii oni uzhe zd..
V Anglii oni uzhe zdorovo prodvinulis v etom. est uzhe nametki, chto mozhno opredeljat po analizu krovi. No, konechno, poka tolko , v osnovnom, klinicheski - po simptomam, hotja oni - uvi!!! - ochen smazani i chasto simulirujut drugije zabolevanija.
Сообщение: 2261
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Откуда: Россия, Великий Новгород
Репутация:
2
Отправлено: 04.06.09 12:45. Заголовок: Я нашла форума, где ..
Я нашла форума, где обсуждается " Обзор ситуации с генетическими заболеваниями и что должен учитывать каждый, кто выбирает ту или иную породу"... Читая информацию на форуме, я просто в шоковое состояние вхожу. Все данные материалы взяты из статьи, опубликованной в одном из журналов Америки, по политики разведения собак за 40-50 лет вообще для шоу и в частности политики Американского Кеннел Клуба... Приводятся высказывания известных авторов, ветеринаров, тренеров, заводчиков о деградировавших породах.
Волосы дыбом встают... от прочитанного. Плохо, что я не владею в совершенстве английским языком и многие статьи не могу читать без онлайн перевода....поэтому сама еще только начала изучать и хочу собрать данный материал.... Меня резанула такая фраза: У них "кризис здоровья собак национального масштаба"... а у нас интересно что...? у нас в России изучали проблемы генетических заболеваний... и есть ли статистика с наследственностью по породам? или мы пользуемся информацией только зарубежной... а на них пальцем показываем, мол проблемы то у них...,....а у нас все чисто - пристойно и нас это не касается...
Отправлено: 04.06.09 13:44. Заголовок: LIUDMILA пишет: у н..
LIUDMILA пишет:
цитата:
у нас в России изучали проблемы генетических заболеваний... и есть ли статистика с наследственностью по породам? или мы пользуемся информацией только зарубежной...
Pro Rossiju - ne znaju, no v Latvii etim nikto v takom rakurse ne zanimalsja. Esli i zanimalis to tolko v rakurse - horosho, chto nikto nichego ne znaet!.... - " nichego ne slishu... nichego ne vizhu.... nichego ne znaju - nichego nikomu ne skazhu..."
Отправлено: 04.06.09 13:59. Заголовок: ja tu namedni vstup..
ja tu namedni vstupila v diskussiju o Leonah.... Mne kazhetsja eto budet interesno dlja mnogih:
[LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers?
Inbox X
Karen Hindson to LEOLIST
Follow up message Hello to all the "statistical boffins" out there.
Many pure bred dogs are in dire straits owing largely to inbred populations and lack of genetic diversity which in a nutshell, boils down to Inbreeding Depression.
Normally natural selection would deselect harmful genes but human intervention and the promotion of the "matador sires" and so called "line breeding" in the never ending attempt to breed the ultimate show winner, has seen many breeds change extraordinarily, not only in conformation but also sadly in many detrimental health issues and therefore overall longevity.
I believe that there is evidence of inbreeding depression in Leonbergers and I would like to know how one could set about an analysis of all the information we have to hand to either confirm or disprove this belief.
My reasons are:
a) Overall longevity is decreasing at an alarming rate. Although it would appear that the Leos of yester year with what looks like incredibly high COIs (relatively speaking) actually had a multitude of unknown ancestors, i.e., ancestors without registrations. Ancestors that may or may not have been Leonbergers at all. Nevertheless, that meant diversity!
b) There is clear evidence that Osteosarcoma and Hemangiosarcoma are the 2 main cancers that afflict the Leo. Is this due to inbreeding depression? How much does environment, diet, etc. play a part?
c) Inherited Leonberger Polyneuropathy. Big question mark here, relatively small problem...we think! But where does it fit in?
d) Other assorted health issues: Increasing evidence of heart, eye, thyroid, allergies and other autoimmune troubles, even elbows are becoming a problem!
Unfortunately, as breeders are accustomed to see their dogs as they are, their morbidity and short life span is "normal" to them, and the counter proof cannot be shown to them within their breed, they will only accept it if their breed is already quite excessively down so that no effective outbreeding within the breed will be possible any more...once a single gene is lost, it can never be regained, no matter how hard one tries to outcross.
There is a telling argument by Jonathon Smid in his paper that shows statistical analysis of a co-relation between rise of COI and rise of cancer rates:- "Increased mortality in Rhodesian Ridgebacks: the consequences of inbreeding depression". (U Ottawa, 2001) http://www.andycheah.com/files/RRLongevity.pdf.
So, if anybody has any ideas to how we can subjectively look at how inbreeding depression may be affecting Leos, speak now! -:)) And, please don't quote Malcom Willis who only looks at 5 generation pedigrees and says that there is no inbreeding depression in any pure breed!
Karen
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Follow up message - Subject: RE: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers?
You would have to definitely set up a control and experimental group. Though I don't think many of us would intentionally loan our leos to that other than just health surveys. There are just as many diseases in the mixed breeds but many of those findings aren't reported like a club would for the breed. I had never thought about it until the other day I was taking my girl for a health check. A wonderful lady with a mix was in the vet. Her dog had a brain tumor(mixed breed). She said the one before(mixed breed) had also had cancer. She adopted it with the existing condition. So it is so hard to definitely say. I know there are many who breed for confirmation but there are those who breed for health too. Maybe a vet or technician could respond and let us know if they see just as many cancers in the mixes as well? Surveys and test would have to be taken worldwide not just the US to come to a definite conclusion.
Maybe we will have clear answers soon.
Shelia - Show quoted text -
_________________________________
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Follow up message > You would have to definitely set up a control and experimental group.
Absolutely! Therefore I need a "boffin" who can analyse the huge amount of info we have on ileo
>I had never thought about it until the other day I was > taking my girl for a health check. A wonderful lady with a mix was in the > vet. Her dog had a brain tumor(mixed breed). She said the one before(mixed > breed) had also had cancer.
Well this is the "bug" that bothers me also. The trouble is that no studies can be undertaken on cross breeds because there are no pedigrees to study. A "mutt" may just as well be inbred as a Leonberger that has a pedigree that can be traced back to 1912! I have two moggie cats (actually, sadly I just put one to sleep) who are nearly 16. Their father was their grand father was their great grand father! They are moggies but all the same inbred to bug****!
However, in general terms, it is pretty much accepted that cross breds live longer and therefore have less health issues.
The Leonberger has an incredibly small gene pool as it is. Should we not be looking to increase unique ancestors? - Show quoted text -
Follow up message I think that comparing cross bred or "mutts" to a 'pure bred" isn't as easy as most people think...first of all...many of the mutts are actually inbred...too many people that had gotten a couple of free dogs from some mis-hap random breeding of another person that had kept a son from their previous accidental breeding and then it happens again...a large portion of the mutts are actually just as much, if not more so inbred than a purebred dog...and as far as the health issues and what not...there is no record of any sort on the random accidental breedings of mutts so there is nothing to compare it to...and being in an all breed rescue you see many heart problems, hip problems, allergies, eyes, thyroid...all kinds of things...there are Vets in our area that work closely with rescue groups and treat the dogs that come in that would have a wealth of information on the mixed breeds and the problems they suffer... if you are thinking of taking a GP and breeding it to a Leo for instance...won't guarantee you a better outcome just because you are out crossing so to speak...the 2 dogs be it purebred or mutt...will bring good genes and bad genes... even the leonberger data bases are not covering all of the Leos in the world...nor covering the offspring and health issues...I know here in the states there are hundreds of Leos (if not thousands) that are not in any of the data bases...and that is just one country...I am not sure there is a way to really get a clear picture of the Leos health issues when we are only able to collect info on a small portion of the Leonbergers...for every one Leo that is reported I bet there is at least 2 others out there that are not...and are those other 2 good health or bad health...old or young...no way of telling....
Kat
----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Hindson" <karenhindson@HOTMAIL.COM> To: <LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers? - Show quoted text -
However, in general terms, it is pretty much accepted that cross breds live longer and therefore have less health issues.
The Leonberger has an incredibly small gene pool as it is. Should we not be looking to increase unique ancestors?
Karen
Reply
Jun 1 (3 days ago) Maija Kalnberza to Karen
Follow up message Hello!
Congratulation! You stressing a very important point in Leonbereger breeding system. I am 100% agree with you! I was thinking about the same things a lot too. And I allready wrought letter to President of Leonberger Union - Mr. Willi Güllix (Germany) . Here it is:
Dear Sir, Latvian Leonberger Club is among the youngest one in the World. We start our work with research about most well known kennels and made a contact with a people who are really enthusiastic in this field, as, in fact, we are. First decision we made was - we should bring to our Country only dogs who is healthy and who could be a start point for selective work to make our own Leonberger line. During one year we brought to Latvia more then 10 puppy from different part of the World, because we want to avoid inbrindig. These puppy was a best ones from the litters we choose. And, after about 2 years we found out that 25- 30% of our dogs have different genetic desiseas but one dog have a minor problem, which is allowed to exist,but, having this problem this dog will never ever become in a top position, and we could not use him in breeding program. Off course when we get the these sad news about this genetic problems, first was to call breeders and kennels where from we get these dogs, and the common answer was -.." you could put your dogs through, more or less big, cosmetic surgery. Our people always do that!" That was shock and surprise in one! So now for some it is not dog competition , but surgeon competition! Our club is very young, and we have not very much dogs in our region, but we already want to disagree with that!
Breeders of winning dogs earn the respect of their peers and others, and that respect can lead to enhanced benefits to the breeders. Within this environment, other benefits can also be accrued from breeding winning dogs. These include improving the breed; gaining personal satisfaction; and commanding higher prices for puppies bred from the winners bloodlines. Since genetic diseases are passed to subsequent generations by parents who contribute the causal factors contained within their own genetic makeup, one point regarding this problem is fundamental:
The elimination of genetic diseases can only be accomplished through selective breeding
The problems lie in determining how to identify the diseases' causal factors in dogs; in understanding when not to breed them; and in the implementation of selective breeding programs based upon these factors. Some of the avenues to be investigated include:
Basic Education First and foremost in solving any problem is ensuring that everyone involved understands it. the basic information required to make progress toward the elimination of genetic disease by developing an effective breeding program is within the reach and understanding of everyone concerned.
Breeders should understand the implications of genetic diseases recognized as affecting their breeds, and take steps to breed only those dogs that will minimize the propagation of unwanted characteristics. Cooperation between dog breeders, researchers, prospective purchasers, and purebred dog organizations at all levels is essential if genetically healthy dogs are to become a reality.
One thing is certain - without the continued attention of many people, the situation can only get worse.
May be it is time to think how to make situation impossible for not very clean breeders and veterinarians to destroy such a beautiful breed as LEONBERGER is!
Best regards, Dr.Med.Maija Kalnberza-Brante President of Latvian Leonberger Club. www.leonbergerdog.lv - Show quoted text -
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Karen Hindson <karenhindson@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello to all the "statistical boffins" out there.
Many pure bred dogs are in dire straits owing largely to inbred populations and lack of genetic diversity which in a nutshell, boils down to Inbreeding Depression.
Normally natural selection would deselect harmful genes but human intervention and the promotion of the "matador sires" and so called "line breeding" in the never ending attempt to breed the ultimate show winner, has seen many breeds change extraordinarily, not only in conformation but also sadly in many detrimental health issues and therefore overall longevity.
I believe that there is evidence of inbreeding depression in Leonbergers and I would like to know how one could set about an analysis of all the information we have to hand to either confirm or disprove this belief.
My reasons are:
a) Overall longevity is decreasing at an alarming rate. Although it would appear that the Leos of yester year with what looks like incredibly high COIs (relatively speaking) actually had a multitude of unknown ancestors, i.e., ancestors without registrations. Ancestors that may or may not have been Leonbergers at all. Nevertheless, that meant diversity!
b) There is clear evidence that Osteosarcoma and Hemangiosarcoma are the 2 main cancers that afflict the Leo. Is this due to inbreeding depression? How much does environment, diet, etc. play a part?
c) Inherited Leonberger Polyneuropathy. Big question mark here, relatively small problem...we think! But where does it fit in?
d) Other assorted health issues: Increasing evidence of heart, eye, thyroid, allergies and other autoimmune troubles, even elbows are becoming a problem!
Unfortunately, as breeders are accustomed to see their dogs as they are, their morbidity and short life span is "normal" to them, and the counter proof cannot be shown to them within their breed, they will only accept it if their breed is already quite excessively down so that no effective outbreeding within the breed will be possible any more...once a single gene is lost, it can never be regained, no matter how hard one tries to outcross.
There is a telling argument by Jonathon Smid in his paper that shows statistical analysis of a co-relation between rise of COI and rise of cancer rates:- "Increased mortality in Rhodesian Ridgebacks: the consequences of inbreeding depression". (U Ottawa, 2001) http://www.andycheah.com/files/RRLongevity.pdf.
So, if anybody has any ideas to how we can subjectively look at how inbreeding depression may be affecting Leos, speak now! -:)) And, please don't quote Malcom Willis who only looks at 5 generation pedigrees and says that there is no inbreeding depression in any pure breed!
Kat wrote: >many of the mutts are actually inbred. Yes, could be as in the example of my moggie cats. But you diverge from basic question in much of the rest of your post, albeit you have adressed the growing problem of non registered Leos. Ileo attempts in a small way to list these Leos also but the bottom line comes down to what we know and how best this information should be put to the welfare and future of the Leonberger
Karen
Reply
Karen Hindson Hey, Sandy! Long time no hear -:)) Hmmmm, if you have the answers and have al...
Reply
Follow up message
Hey, Sandy!
Long time no hear -:))
Hmmmm, if you have the answers and have already solved the problems that defeat the rest of us mere mortals (well renowned geneticists included) could you be a little more specific in terms of your scientific background?
I don't see how I neglected the problems when one solely outcrosses in the Leonberger, since in fact, this is a total impossibility in the first place!
My question remains: Is there inbreeding depression and how to find the answer
From: shreuter@gmail.com To: karenhindson@hotmail.com
any good biologist can figure this out. I know I have done it along with several other research scientist in other scientific fields with the data that i have for the last 17 years. Obviously you are neglecting the problem that pops out when one solely does outcrosses and unfortunately learns that the two they have combined are carriers for a genetic problem
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K. Wilson Yes, YOUR info may be on there...but not all Leos are... And Karen my concern...
Jun 1 (3 days ago) K. WilsonLoading... Jun 1 (3 days ago) K. Wilson to LEOLIST
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Follow up message Yes, YOUR info may be on there...but not all Leos are... And Karen my concern is that as great as the databases are and how useful they can be...I am not convinced that this info offered is actually really reflecting a true representation of the health of the Leos...and if you are using only the info that "we" have access to...one might come to a conclusion that the health of the "average' Leo...or at least the average on the database is this and that...when actually...if all those other non represented Leos were some how put in the equation...we would see things differently...???? and if we 'read' too much into the limited information we have that we could actually do the breed more harm rather than good...???? the databases are great...I just wish that there was more participation...but we do not live in a perfect world...
----- Original Message ----- From: "montrond" <montrond@COX.NET>
To: <LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers?
My info is registered with Worldwide independent leonberger database. It can be gathered from that.
-----Original Message----- From: Mailing List for Leonberger Fanciers [mailto:LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Karen Hindson Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:44 AM To: LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers?
Kat wrote:
many of the mutts are actually inbred.
Yes, could be as in the example of my moggie cats. But you diverge from basic question in much of the rest of your post, albeit you have adressed the growing problem of non registered Leos. Ileo attempts in a small way to list these Leos also but the bottom line comes down to what we know and how best this information should be put to the welfare and future of the Leonberger
- Show quoted text - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To turn off Digest or Index and receive individual posts, email LISTSERV@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM with: SET LEOLIST MAIL
Email LEOLIST-REQUEST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM for help. LEOLIST Web site: http://www.Leonberger.com/LeoWorld/leolist.html Valid Topics: ADMIN, DOGCHAT, LCA, LCUS All LEOLIST email is Copyright 2003 by its original author. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jean Boggie I know that I have been very aware of the decreasing life span and increase i...
Jun 1 (3 days ago) Jean BoggieLoading... Jun 1 (3 days ago) Jean Boggie to LEOLIST
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Follow up message I know that I have been very aware of the decreasing life span and increase in health issues not just cancers but also heart problems including cardiomyopathy (which is not discussed), fertility especially monochordism, polyneuropathy, eye problems (cataracts), etc. At present I have one Leonberger who is 11 1/2 years old (Quintillius Varus Lowe v. Esing, and one Leonberger who is 10 years old Ch Kallistra von der Lowenhole. I have two of Kallie's children from her A litter - Glitz and Flip - and one grandchild - Ryker. However we have lost four puppies from that same A litter - two to cancer and two to undetermined causes. I have my suspicions on the causes for the two unexplained deaths. Following the second unexplained death, I have tried to breed away from the lines in my dogs.
There is an ignorance of how prevalent some problems have been becoming. No breeder wants to be labelled as the producer of a particular health problem so most are reluctant to disclose these problems. Many of these problems are caused by recessove gemes. The problem only occurs if you breed a particular stud and bitch together. If you bred to a brother and/or sister of either, you would not produce the problem. This is part of why breeders check ancestory of whomever they are breeding to. It is unfair to label a breeder as the cause of a particular problem unless they have bred more than one litter with that problem after the problem was discovered. You cannot forget that some health issues do not appear until a dog is in the two to five year old range (i.e. hypothyrodism).
For example polyneuropathy which has been recognized as a big problem for years here in the USA is finally being diagnosed, discussed and researched in Europe. For many years European breeders did not know of the disease and/or refused to acknowledege its existence. This includes well known Leonberger kennels. I spoke to one kennel which has produce well over twenty champions who perfectly described a dog with laryngeal paralysis (LP) as well as polyneuropothy symptoms but had no knowledge of the fact this was a disease. They had at least three litters on the ground from one dog with those symptoms. I put them in touch with our US group. Europe is now wholeheartedly behind research into this problem and has a very wide base of Leos which includes the ancestors and other relations of our Leos to do research on.
The big thing here is how open everyone is to exchanging the information. It is great to say that all breeders should make information on their litters available and that everyone should have access to all the health information on Leos but knowing human nature, I strongly belief that a nonbreeder Leo person might well label a kennel as producting unhealthy dogs with this or that health problem where it might only be only one litter and/or dog that has the problem. You and I both know that people are reluctant to purchase puppies from someone produces dogs with health problems. This is why an open as opposed to a closed only available to breeders health registry is such an issue.
Responsible breeders make their breeding decisions based on the health information available to them. If problems are not disclosed then you only learn about their existence after the fact. Many breeders are reluctant to supply negative information. Also I have found that sometimes it is hard to get negative health information from the breeders of my dogs because they have not received the information from the breeders of their dogs. In addition most breeders have a hard time getting information on the puppies from all of our puppy owners. There are those owners who stay in close touch or in touch at least once annually or if anything happens, however, there are also owners who take the puppy, walk out the door and despite their promises and even contract provisions never contact the breeder again. Breeders like to see what they produced and to hear about the health of those dogs. This is how we can really see what we are producing and can track any health problems in our lines.
Jean - Show quoted text -
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montrond A huge help would be for those who get a puppy to do so from people who do te...
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Follow up message A huge help would be for those who get a puppy to do so from people who do test and study pedigrees. It would help to phase those who don't out of practice to a degree. I am sure if I bred long enough there will be some problems crop up as in all lines.
-----Original Message----- From: Mailing List for Leonberger Fanciers [mailto:LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Karen Hindson Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:19 PM To: LEOLIST@APPLE.EASE.LSOFT.COM - Show quoted text - Subject: Re: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers?
Hey, Sandy!
Long time no hear -:))
Hmmmm, if you have the answers and have already solved the problems that defeat the rest of us mere mortals (well renowned geneticists included) could you be a little more specific in terms of your scientific background?
I don't see how I neglected the problems when one solely outcrosses in the Leonberger, since in fact, this is a total impossibility in the first place!
My question remains: Is there inbreeding depression and how to find the answer
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:46:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [LEOLIST] Is there evidence of Inbreeding Depression in Leonbergers? From: shreuter@gmail.com To: karenhindson@hotmail.com
any good biologist can figure this out. I know I have done it along with several other research scientist in other scientific fields with the data that i have for the last 17 years. Obviously you are neglecting the problem that pops out when one solely does outcrosses and unfortunately learns that the two they have combined are carriers for a genetic problem
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Knut J Bjuland There are a loot of information about inbreed mice contra out breed mice. Inb...
Jun 2 (2 days ago) Knut J BjulandLoading... Jun 2 (2 days ago) Knut J Bjuland to LEOLIST
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Follow up message There are a loot of information about inbreed mice contra out breed mice. Inbreedmice often lives about 500 days while out breed mice may life as long as 700 days. These data comes from laboratory mice, where the inbreed mice are breed with full brother-sister mating for 20 generation or more. Inbreed breed tend to accumulate recessive mutant that may often be the cause of disease. When you are doing a out breeding with an inbreed breed the new mate tend to become mote health because some recessive mutation is hidden away by dominant health genes. I do not know of any screening which is done international, but the pet insurance companies may have a lot of data about different disease in different breed among them mix breed versus pure breed.
I think the society should conduct world view survey for cancer in dog because it might also uncover things that may be dangerous to human as well. Since the dog develop cancer much faster than human they might give us information about new substance which is may cause cancer much early than if only humans are measured. Since cancer is more prevalent in some dog breed due to that many dogs in some breeds carries genes which cause cancer. You can do search in pubmed,http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ to get an idea, since it give only search peer review article in both human and veterinary medicine . --
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Karen Hindson to LEOLIST
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Follow up message Shelia wrote: > > At what point is there a considered out cross? After several generations > isn't it considered line breeding at a small percent. Can you totally > outcross anything anymore? Just wondering
Many breeders will look at a 5 generation pedigree and if that pedigree has no duplicated ancestors, i.e., and AVK of 100%, the breeding will be considered "outcrossed" even though it maybe that there are several duplications happening in the 6th generation.
Many breeders take the view that they are "linebreeding" when they choose just one or two ancestors to appear more than once in the five generation pedigree and only consider "inbreeding" as being between very close relatives; father/daughter, brother/sister, etc.
This is of course nonsense, there is NO difference between line and inbreeding.
It is not possible to totally out cross any pure breed anymore unless another breed(s) is introduced and then you have a "mutt", not a pure breed, so most canine genetecists agree that inbreeding depression starts happening at COI 4% at 10 generations. Even Malcom Willis agrees on this point except that he looks only at 4 or 5 generations which is really stupid -:))
In breeds where the total population is still very small and number of unique ancestors miniscule as is the case with the Leonberger, the consensus amoungst geneticists is for breeders to try to aim for between 5%-6% at 10 generations and over several generations under 4%. Overall COIs 30 generations and beyond will never decrease because the pedigrees will always go back to the same founding dogs.
Sadly very few Leonberger pedigrees are managing a COI of 5% but some ARE, so that means it IS possible. We even have a few litters that have LESS than 4%!!!
In my opinion, breeders need to be focusing on 10 generation pedigrees and NOT 5 and also need to have a comprehension of how Relationship Co-efficients work which would be one of the ways we could help pin-point carriers of recessive genes.
It is a long term project and one that would need co-operation from all countries to be able to make a significant head start.
All breeders should make an effort to understand at least the basics of how genetics work and clubs, (Germany, Switzerland spring to mind) instead of making strict rules in terms of what can or can't be bred from dogs' hip results and show results, thus limiting the gene pool even further and promoting the matador sires, should be insisting on limiting COIs to 10 generations.
Over the last 30-50 years the Leonberger has lost an awful lot "lines" thanks largely to the rules of the German club which I am sure were intended to improve the breed but which in fact has lead to severe loss of genetic diversity.
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Отправлено: 04.06.09 14:14. Заголовок: Вот написала ... :sm..
Вот написала ... Я неделю собирала информацию и переводила о полиневропатии... а тут опять дала мне "головоломку" ....мне надо время для перевода.. ....подожди - обсудим. я сейчас размещу в отдельную темку: "Справочник по врожденным и наследственным заболеваниям собак (включает в себя генетическую предрасположенность к болезням)" на русском языке.
Отправлено: 04.06.09 14:28. Заголовок: RE:Shannon White to ..
RE:Shannon White to LEOLIST
4:24 PM (22 hours ago) Maija Kalnberza to LEOLIST
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Follow up message Hi, You wrought: How many people with mutts even test their dogs for genetic diseases? Well I think - a lot! Sure - much more- do not care about this. But, what is a most worst thing - even if they do this, and get a bad result - this affect only exactly this concrete dog. But do not affect this dog father, mother, sisters and brothers. Everybody should very strongly keep in mind - genetic diseases are not infection diseases, so this dog with "bad" gene does not get it at new owner home through the ear. And this dog brothers and sisters, in fact, have a same parents, so have a, pretty much, same genetic background. Everybody new, that this "bad" gene this dog get from father or/and from mother. But what happen in reality? In reality, if we would took best choice, - dog with bad gene are out of breeding, but his parents continue to be in breeding program. From my point of view - first, what should happen - parents, of the dog with genetic disorder, should be taken out of breeding, same as this dog brothers and sisters. Hard? May be. But this is nature low. If we, who really care about Leonberger breed, will be honest and strong in our mind - this is only one way how to get this breed healthy. Second - should be only one genetic tests schedule for all Countries. Could not be a situation, that for some owners is necessary only HD test, for some HD and elbow tests, and for somebody - eyes tests and oncology in addition. This schedule should be renewed each year - because new and new genetic tests are coming. Only dogs with all tests- EXCELLENT, could be in use for breeding.
Dr.Med.Maija K.
-- Dr.Med.Maija K. www.leonbergerdog.lv www.leonbergerunion.lv Reply
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Shannon White to LEOLIST
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Follow up message I have to disagree that a lot of mutt owners do health tests (OFA, CERF, for example) on their mutts. Nope. Maybe if the dog presents with a symptom they might run a blood test for that symptom. But the VAST majority will not ever test their mutt for anything that could be inherited if they don't have to. Sorry to disagree so loudly, but I've been in dogs all my life and I have known virtually no one with a mutt who did official screening tests on them.
Now, about the excellent health result dogs being bred, here's where things get dicey.
If you say that only dogs who have excellent test results on everything should be bred (keeping in mind that some tests do not have an excellent option, but only numeric values or pass/fail), then you actually SHRINK the gene pool.
And in so doing, complicate the health situation. Because two excellent hip dogs can and have produce dysplastic offspring. The heritability issue in hip dysplasia alone have proven that excellent results in the parents does not prevent dysplasia in offspring. The same could easily be applied to all other tests.
Obviously we want to breed healthy dogs. But it's not as simple as saying only excellent health test dogs should be bred. There are still way too many variables. And limiting the gene pool is a mistake. Again, it's a nice idea, but it results in further limiting of the gene pool. Which will lead to greater inbreeding coefficients. And so on.
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Отправлено: 04.06.09 16:07. Заголовок: Да, Майя!!!! Загрузи..
Да, Майя!!!! Загрузила ты меня. Хоть я коряво перевела...но мне твоя мысль понятна и мнения других по обсуждению темы здорового генофонда. Голова кругом идет от информации... Ведь на самом деле не все заводчики и владельцы готовы участвовать в исследованиях на генетическом уровне собак. Конечно это и приводит к различным проблемам. Не все готовы рассказать о проблемах своих собак открыто. Я сама знаю таких... и знаю что скрывают за титулами их собаки. И многие из них не виноваты, что их питомцы несут проблемы от предков... Такой плем. материал ими был приобретен тоже по не знанию... и узнают о наследственных проблемах многие, только после вязок..... Замкнутая цепь... Наверно не будет чистоты в разведении, пока все это не будет принято на законном уровне.
Отправлено: 04.06.09 17:56. Заголовок: Pismo bilo otpravlen..
Pismo bilo otpravleno 23 marta 2009. No otveta ja ne poluchala, na chto, v principe, i ne ochen raschitivala. No ja znala , chto v aprele u nih dolzhno bilo sostojatsja zasedanije Intern.Leo.Union. Mne bilo vazhno poslat do etogo sobitija, nu a dalshe ... oni umnije tam vse sobralis - pust dumajut chto delat - porvat'/zabit' ili podumat' i chto to pomenjat'.
Отправлено: 04.06.09 18:07. Заголовок: Ves uzas situacii - ..
Ves uzas situacii - v ambicijah ljudej. Ved' ja zhe i posle eschjo napisala, chto nado ochen radikalno provodit prorezhivanije rjadov plemennih sobak. S uchjotom vseh samih novih testov, kotorije dolzhni bit edinimi po vsem regionam. Spisok testov neobhodimo obnovljat reguljarno ( da hot' raz v god) i radikalno otseivat vsek pozitivnih, latentnih nositelej i.... k sozhaleniju, ih roditelej. V plemennom razvedenii dolzhni uchastvovat TOLKO absoljutno zdorovije zhivonije. Kstati, na posledneje mne vozrazili - chto , deskat', absoljutno zdorovije tozhe mogut dat potomstvo s geneticheskimi otklonenijami. A ja, tak schitaju, - mozhno , konechno i bolnih sobak razvodit i nadejetsja, chto potomstvo (VDRUG!!!!) okazhetsja zdorovim, no mne kak to blizhe k dushe razvodit zdorovih i , esli hot odin v pomjjote okazhetsja bolnim - tak nazivaemuju "zdorovuju" paru iskljuchat iz dalnejshej raboti....
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Отправлено: 04.06.09 18:53. Заголовок: Я читала перевод ваш..
Я читала перевод вашей дискуссии. Я же тебе написала, что не все будут обследовать , и тем более говорить о проблемах на генетическом уровне племенных собак. Да как правило еще и клиники наверняка не готовы к такому массовому обследованию. Да и не повсеместно можно получить грамотное обследование собаки и консультацию. А если не будет гласности, так эта тема при нашем сознании и ответственном отношении к племенной работе, всегда будет замалчиваться.. Не так еще много найдется понятливых заводчиков и если они есть, то такие еще слабыми ростками пробиваются к цели по здоровому разведению. Хотя все понимают в этом необходимость. Пока все это не узаконят ( а многим это не выгодно)...не сдвинется эта проблема с места. Только когда будут законные требования можно об этом говорить. Я могу только предположить, что и у ведущих, известных заводчиков могут быть проблемы у собак на генетическом уровне. Но... как знать. Базы данных нет. Если кто-то и знает проблемы своего питомца, но боясь быть изгоем, отмалчиваться будут...вот и все. Вообще эта тема как-то постоянно замалчивается...будто проблем со здоровьем собак нет.
Если кто-то и знает проблемы своего питомца, но боясь быть изгоем, отмалчиваться будут...вот и все.
Znachit nado bit pervimi i vsjo rasstavit po mestam. Kstati, zvanije "veduschih " zavodchikov - eto vsjo zhe zvanije ili dolzhnost'? Vot u nas, naprimer, est zvanije "Professor", a est dolzhnost "Professor. Esli pervoje - zvanije- tebe prisuzhdaetsja za nauchnije trudi i dissertacii, to vtoroje - dolzhnost- ti zanimaesh po imejuschejsja 'stavke" Tak kak zhe s "veduschim" zavodchikom?
LIUDMILA пишет:
цитата:
клиники наверняка не готовы к такому массовому обследованию
a naschet klinik- rebjata! ne smeshite! Oni vsegda i na vsjo gotovi, no.... s raznim kachestvom predlagaemogo "produkta". Sejchas mnogije edut testirovatsja v zarubezhnije kliniki. Ceni , v obschem to, te zhe, a kachestvo, konechno ne sravnimo. I ja budu chetko stojat na svojem, - esli chelovek pretendujet na zvanije - ZAVODCHIK, to testi dolzhni bit provedeni v sertificirovannih klinikah.
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Отправлено: 04.06.09 19:45. Заголовок: Вот опять мы с тобой..
Вот опять мы с тобой тему открыли о сознательности в разведении. Хорошо, что форум закрыла... а то подумали бы , что я опять в число выдающихся заводчиков лезу...
Я с тобой полностью согласна. Тема более, чем актуальна!!! Но необходимо поменять сознание любого владельца собаки...в том числе и заводчика. И если бы, была моя воля, я бы присваивала имя ЗАВОДЧИК - ЗА ЗАСЛУГИ...!!!! ЗА ИСПОЛЬЗОВАНИЕ ТОЛЬКО ЧИСТОГО ГЕНОФОНДА В РАЗВЕДЕНИИ....а не за то, что я просто щенков на свет произвожу.... А так, Как не назови нас....СОЗНАНИЕ и ОТВЕТСТВЕННОСТЬ ПЕРЕД БУДУЩИМ определяет результат. Если бы объединился кинологический мир....и была выстроена единая стратегия..... так это просто утопия. Конечно начинать кому-то надо.Согласна!!! И стремиться к чистоте в разведении - это должно быть как "ОТЧЕ НАШЕ"...для любого владельца...не только для звания заводчик.
Я согласна например обследовать своих девчонок. А как быть с владельцем кобеля? Как его убедить в необходимости...? Или где найти такого сознательного владельца? Требований по разведению четких нет. Информации нет о генетической наследственности у предков. Как знать, что мои суки ничего не несут? Какие точно обследования необходимо пройти???? Вопросов много.... Согласна.... и с клиникой можно определиться. И в случаях проведения обследования, это и лабораториям будут интересны знания, как и владельцам. Но повторюсь... Единые требования обследования наверняка необходимо разработать, с учетом особенности породы. Вот с чего бы ты начала обследовать свою собаку? Ты конечно врач. И тебе известны даже медицинские термины по генетики, не говоря уж о названии самих обследований. А мне, как не сведущему в генетических заболеваниях, дилетанту.... просто владельцу собаки с чего начинать? При все моем желании, и готовности....с чего?
Отправлено: 04.06.09 20:49. Заголовок: Nachinat, nado bi, k..
Nachinat, nado bi, konechno so svoih sobak, kotorije imejutsja v nalichii. 1. Ochen tshtelno otsledit rodoslovnuju svoih sobak. 1.a. opredelit nalichije zabolevanij (ljubih!!! poka) po linii sester i brat'jev odnopomjotnikov otca i materi, deda i babki, pradeda i prababki - etih eschjo mozhno budet zhivjom otiskat. Esli net dannih o zabolevanijah - pitatsja opredelit - bili li sredi etih sobak smertnije sluchai v srednem i molodom vozraste. ( uzhe dokazano nasledstvennoje znachenije onkologicheskih opuholej, kak to - ostesarkoma i ostalnije) 1.b. opredelit nalichije u vseh vishe perechislennih sobak rezultati testov na displaziju tazobedrennih sustavov i plechevih, rezultati testov glaz i zubov ( nalichije M3). Eto budet uzhe ne prosto, tak kak dazhe v Germanii ,v osnovnom, uchitivaetsja tolko displazija tazobedrennih sustavov . Vsjo ostalnoje, prostite, - po zhelaniju. 1c. analogichno punkta 1,a, prodelat rabotu po sboru info odnopomjotnikov svoej sobstvennoj sobaki.
2. Provesti testirovanije svoej sobaki po vsem testam, kotorije segodnja imejutsja, to est- Displazija tazobedrennih sustavov i plechevih, glaza, zubi.
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Отправлено: 04.06.09 21:55. Заголовок: Maija пишет: Ochen ..
Maija пишет:
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Ochen tshtelno otsledit rodoslovnuju svoih sobak.
Это я отслеживала ... до 70- ых годов предков своих собак. но только по кличкам, и месту регистрации родословных... .А данных по их обследованию, в том числе дисплазию...локти , глаза и зубы у некоторых нет результатов...и мне никто, никогда уже их не даст. Я пыталась узнать... на что мне четко было сказано, что раньше этого при разведении не требовалось и никто никого не обследовал...это у нас в России... При том в те года не было даже Нац. клубов...по моим породам. И например леоны - предки многие были зарегистрированы не при РКФ... Что же делать в таком случае? Я даже не знаю где живут однопометники... моих старших девчат в частности. А уж о здоровье и в помине не узнаю. Как быть с обследованием бабушек... не говорю уже про прабабушек и прадедушек...а уж про 5 - 6 поколение вообще история их болезни умалчивает...Нет информации - и взять негде. Кому это надо было....у нас конкретно. опять возвращаемся к тому, что с тобой уже обсуждали.
Я могу только своих обследовать... и начать как бы с чистого листа для будущих поколений... но то что было до меня - это давно забытая, да и закрытая информация. Единственное продолжительность жизни можно узнать... да я даже где-то записывала еще года два назад, перед тем, как планировала первую вязку, изучала корни предков своих девчат. А клички по родословной, мне не дадут результатов обследования на генетическом уровне. Учитывая, что у нас в России, ты сама видела базу данных по леонам, а по тибетам вообще нет....о каких запросах по состоянию здоровья предков и родственников можно вести речь. Ведь как только начинаешь чем-то интересоваться ( в частности результатами обследований), все воспринимается каким то подкопом в адрес интереса. И опять все тот же приславутый замкнутый круг. Нет информации - нет проблем. Не желание и не знание собственных проблем, по мнению многих, нас ведь освобождает от ответственности перед будущим. Это бытующее мнение... и как с ним быть? Что делать в таких случаях? Нет законных требований в разведении - вот и весь ответ....
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Отправлено: 05.06.09 21:09. Заголовок: Maija Майя! Ссылк..
Maija
Майя! Ссылка, которую ты мне сегодня прислала с информацию о реалиях разведения собак в мире, а также информацию о различных генетических отклонений, просто супер!!!! Ведь там не только литература по разведению, ... там в одном месте собрана кладезь информации с разных стран, по селекции и заводчикам, которые занимаются именно чистым генофондом в разведении по клубам мира. Я просто прибалдела. Вот спасибки!!! Я теперь не выхожу с этого сайта... сижу разбираю, перевожу и копирую материал себе в папку.
Давай брать отдельные материалы по темам, одновременно разбирать их и обсуждать? Ведь такая школа!!!!
Отправлено: 22.05.10 08:28. Заголовок: LIUDMILA Людочка а в..
LIUDMILA Людочка а в той ссылке которую тебе прислала Майа, информация только по леонам? Или вообще по всем породам. Если по всем породам, можено мне тоже такую ссылочку
Подниму тему-в субботу на собрании клуба вскользь упоминалось это заболевание и что можно узнать имена собак, подверженных этому заболеванию. В Швеции и Финляндии обнаружено несколько. Была озвучена одна приставка питомника, хотелось бы узнать, может кто знает эту базу данных?
Отправлено: 18.05.10 16:47. Заголовок: Люда, я не буду озву..
Люда, я не буду озвучивать имя этой собаки, пока сама не увижурезультат анализа. Мне в клубе тоже сказали, что есть на сайте место, где можно посмотреть результаты проверенных собак. Я думаю Алёна имела ввиду проверить возможное родство своих собак с данным кобелём, о ком говорила например я.
Сообщение: 443
Зарегистрирован: 18.03.09
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Отправлено: 21.07.10 09:11. Заголовок: Меня тоже интересует..
Меня тоже интересует проблема полиневропатии. Тест можно отослать в Швейцарию? Но где у нас можно сдать образцы крови? Или в ближайшем зарубежье? Подскажите кто что знает.
Люда, я не буду озвучивать имя этой собаки, пока сама не увижу результат анализа. Мне в клубе тоже сказали, что есть на сайте место, где можно посмотреть результаты проверенных собак. Я думаю Алёна имела ввиду проверить возможное родство своих собак с данным кобелём, о ком говорила например я.
Вот мне тоже надо проверить бы родство по шведско-норвежским линиям... база нужна...Кто нибудь нашел результаты обследований собранные в единую базу? Надежда, если что нашла - сообщи плиз...
papa726 пишет:
цитата:
Но где у нас можно сдать образцы крови? Или в ближайшем зарубежье? Подскажите кто что знает.
Отправлено: 21.07.10 17:21. Заголовок: Edinaja baza po zabo..
Edinaja baza po zabolevanijam tolko sozdajotsja.
Vot , chto ja poluchila namedni....
Karen Hindson to LEOLIST
Hello Everyone, We have been trying to figure out a way for those Leos who have LPN1 test results to be found quickly and easily on International Leonberger Database. Ileo already has 9 different ways to search the database from the drop down menu, each of which requiring its own seperate online programme. To create yet another search option and to add another seperate field for LPN1 alone would mean that we would have to re-design this database from start to finish.....an EXTREMELY costly and time consuming excercise. So we are going to add # to the names of dogs submitted to ileo. In testing this option we found that just typing # into the second box (search engine) was rejected but if a space was included BEFORE the # all Leos whose results we have received will be displayed. We only have one so far: http://ileodata.com/search.php?field=Name&search=+%23&Submit=Search+Now<\/u><\/a> So this is a testing option at this stage and we would really like to hear feedback and of course more Leos to add -:)) Karen
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- " nichego ne slishu... nichego ne vizhu.... nichego ne znaju - nichego nikomu ne skazhu..." 
Mne kazhetsja eto budet interesno dlja mnogih: 
I ja budu chetko stojat na svojem, - esli chelovek pretendujet na zvanije - ZAVODCHIK, to testi dolzhni bit provedeni v sertificirovannih klinikah.
И тебе известны даже медицинские термины по генетики, не говоря уж о названии самих обследований. 
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